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	<title>Comments on: Revisiting understeer</title>
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	<link>http://www.rassoc.com/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/</link>
	<description>Musings on just about everything.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Harvey McFadden</title>
		<link>http://www.rassoc.com/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-580</link>
		<dc:creator>Harvey McFadden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregrphoto.com/rassoc/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-580</guid>
		<description>---&lt;br&gt;Let us look at 3 cars:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We will assume that each car has a weight of 1,000kg&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It will have front traction (FT) and rear traction (RT)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Traction is calculated as weight x the adhesion of a tire and we will give a standard all season radial a value of 1.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;CAR 1   1000kg    49% of weight on front,  51% on rear&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The theoretical perfect car:  It exists as sports cars and race cars.  It has a split of 49% weight on the front and 51% weight on the back. (FT=490  RT=510)  It has very predictable behaviour and if it starts to get out of control it will be felt on the front end first and will tend to go straight ahead and braking or slowing down will bring it back under control.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I put radial tires on the front axle (A=1)and belted tires on the rear axle (A=0.6) then FT=490 and RT=306.  At this point I have broken an MTO law and made the car susceptible to oversteer and if it goes out of control it tends to go sideways and roll over or veer into other lanes of traffic.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;CAR 2  1,000kg&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Front wheel drive   65% of weight on front,  35% of weight on rear&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;FT=650    RT=350 with new tires&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;After driving it 10,000km I rotate the tires; now FT=650  RT=315&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Or I put snows tires on the front and  partially worn all seasons on the back; now FT=975  RT=210&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This car is very unpredictable and given to roll-overs and lane changes and even an experienced driver can easily over correct and loose control.             see further information attached&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;CAR 3   1,000KG   &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Front wheel drive  65% of weight on front,  35% of weight on rear&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;4 new tires FT=650  RT=350&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;At this point this is the same as Car 2, however for winter driving if we put front tires on that feel fair on pure ice at about 50kph, which I have found to be about 6 months old all season tires with a value of about 0.8 so FT=520 and on the rear, softer ice-snow radial tires which will give the rear a value of RT=525  (FT=520  RT=525)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This car is very predictable and can out perform even an all wheel drive in some conditions.  If it starts to get out of control you just brake, it slows down and you regain control.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8212;<br />
<br />Let us look at 3 cars:</p>
<p>We will assume that each car has a weight of 1,000kg</p>
<p>It will have front traction (FT) and rear traction (RT)</p>
<p>Traction is calculated as weight x the adhesion of a tire and we will give a standard all season radial a value of 1.</p>
<p>CAR 1   1000kg    49% of weight on front,  51% on rear</p>
<p>The theoretical perfect car:  It exists as sports cars and race cars.  It has a split of 49% weight on the front and 51% weight on the back. (FT=490  RT=510)  It has very predictable behaviour and if it starts to get out of control it will be felt on the front end first and will tend to go straight ahead and braking or slowing down will bring it back under control.</p>
<p>If I put radial tires on the front axle (A=1)and belted tires on the rear axle (A=0.6) then FT=490 and RT=306.  At this point I have broken an MTO law and made the car susceptible to oversteer and if it goes out of control it tends to go sideways and roll over or veer into other lanes of traffic.</p>
<p>CAR 2  1,000kg</p>
<p>Front wheel drive   65% of weight on front,  35% of weight on rear</p>
<p>FT=650    RT=350 with new tires</p>
<p>After driving it 10,000km I rotate the tires; now FT=650  RT=315</p>
<p>Or I put snows tires on the front and  partially worn all seasons on the back; now FT=975  RT=210</p>
<p>This car is very unpredictable and given to roll-overs and lane changes and even an experienced driver can easily over correct and loose control.             see further information attached</p>
<p>CAR 3   1,000KG   </p>
<p>Front wheel drive  65% of weight on front,  35% of weight on rear</p>
<p>4 new tires FT=650  RT=350</p>
<p>At this point this is the same as Car 2, however for winter driving if we put front tires on that feel fair on pure ice at about 50kph, which I have found to be about 6 months old all season tires with a value of about 0.8 so FT=520 and on the rear, softer ice-snow radial tires which will give the rear a value of RT=525  (FT=520  RT=525)</p>
<p>This car is very predictable and can out perform even an all wheel drive in some conditions.  If it starts to get out of control you just brake, it slows down and you regain control.</p>
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		<title>By: All the cars I've ever owned</title>
		<link>http://www.rassoc.com/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-579</link>
		<dc:creator>All the cars I've ever owned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregrphoto.com/rassoc/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-579</guid>
		<description>In roughly chronological order: Holden HG Kingswood....[&lt;a href='http://zippy.actapps.com.au/Radio/2005/08/07.html#a289' rel="nofollow"&gt;more&lt;/a&gt;]
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In roughly chronological order: Holden HG Kingswood&#8230;.[<a href='http://zippy.actapps.com.au/Radio/2005/08/07.html#a289' rel="nofollow">more</a>]</p>
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		<title>By: Don Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.rassoc.com/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-578</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregrphoto.com/rassoc/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-578</guid>
		<description>As a first time reader, I have always wondered how the driving  characteristics of a FWD and a RWD differ from each other at the APEX of a curve.  I know that at the apex if you give gas to a RWD it will wash out (start skidding)at the back end over the driven wheels (makes an oversteer) and the back end will push off of the OUTSIDE of the curve.  This actually helps point your nose in the direction that you want to go at the vertex.  However, what happens when you give gas to a FWD vehicle at the vertex?  Anybody know??????  Don
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a first time reader, I have always wondered how the driving  characteristics of a FWD and a RWD differ from each other at the APEX of a curve.  I know that at the apex if you give gas to a RWD it will wash out (start skidding)at the back end over the driven wheels (makes an oversteer) and the back end will push off of the OUTSIDE of the curve.  This actually helps point your nose in the direction that you want to go at the vertex.  However, what happens when you give gas to a FWD vehicle at the vertex?  Anybody know??????  Don</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.rassoc.com/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-577</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gregrphoto.com/rassoc/gregr/weblog/2003/05/31/revisiting-understeer/#comment-577</guid>
		<description>yeah, thanks for the explanation! Understeer can be a scary thing, especially to an inexperienced 16 year old driver in his Mom's fifty thousand dollar BMW! Just Watch that corner round the other bend if you lift hard off the accelerator and the tail swings out, or before you know it you'll be all over the show then completely off the road or track. If you do drive a low powered car, just be careful if you stab the accelerator during understeer because most of the time it will just make that horrible understeer even worse! Tahnks
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, thanks for the explanation! Understeer can be a scary thing, especially to an inexperienced 16 year old driver in his Mom&#8217;s fifty thousand dollar BMW! Just Watch that corner round the other bend if you lift hard off the accelerator and the tail swings out, or before you know it you&#8217;ll be all over the show then completely off the road or track. If you do drive a low powered car, just be careful if you stab the accelerator during understeer because most of the time it will just make that horrible understeer even worse! Tahnks</p>
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